Why Liberals Suck

I spent several days trying to have useful conversations on the Media Matters website.  I found most people that identified as liberal (or democrat) were rude and did little to advance any conversation.  Those that were cordial were smart and provided excellent and challenging arguments for their position.  Unfortunately only 2 people out of the 6 that I conversed with were cordial.  At least 2 where rude simply because they saw me as a “Right Wing Nut Job” or RWNJ for short.  These people were so down-right hostile and dehumanizing I stopped responding to them.  Thankfully they decided to badger someone else and not continue to try and goad me.

I also noticed that a number of people (antagonists) would not use rational argument to make a point, they would use insults to poke and prod someone (protagonist).  When the protagonist finally responds with insult or anger the antagonist would declare, “ah-ha!” and dismiss the protagonist’s argument on the basis that the protagonist was using lies or anger or bullying to make their point.  I observed this behavior on at least 4 different conversation threads.

Here are a few excerpts of conversations in which I participated:


Iron Mike (Pro-conservative)
So are you saying it is OK for Barack to miss the meetings because some prior other president did it and we had 9/11 because of it!

That is a brilliant thing to say. It seems missing intelligence meetings can cause disaster for USA foreign policy so maybe the president should attend.

clearstate (Pro-liberal)
Its called selective outrage. Republicans and Fox were silent about Bush missing the memo/briefing about terrorists and airplanes. Now that it “happened” with a Democrat President, they act all concerned while propping up Bush.

Me (Conservative)
Did you actually watch the news? After 9/11 there was about a week solid of “Bush ignored the memo.” There was even serious talk about impeaching him over it.

Jermone (Pro-liberal)
That is a lie. Plain and simple. Post-9-11, up until Dubya’s tragic mishandling of Hurricane Katrina and it’s aftermath, W was treated by the media as above reproach. I was called a traitor for not wanting us to invade Iraq in 2003 because “It unpatriotic not to support the President” .

There was NO serious talk about impeaching Dubya, though there should have been. You are either ignorant or a liar or both.

< Notice how Jermone changes context from clearstate’s “selective outrage over W’s missing the memo” – in 2004 – to 9/11/2001 so he can call me a liar.  I wish I caught that sooner! >

Me (Conservative)
Slow down, Jerome. Don’t burst a blood vessel.

Okay… let me qualify that better: there was a week straight after the memo was released in April 2004. (A bit beyond, but still after 9/11.)

In 2008 Dennis Kucinich put forth impeachment charges against Bush. The house voted 251 to 166 to refer the impeachment to the judiciary committee (where it died.) 3 of those charges were related to 9/11.

Hope that helps.

Easy_to_refute_wingnuts (Pro-liberal)

Slow down, Jerome. Don’t burst a blood vessel.

Why do RWNJs always project the way they would react onto others?

< I never did get an explanation as to what was projected. >

Me (Conservative)
Huh? Jerome started with “That is a lie.” and ended by called me either ignorant or a liar or both. That sounds fairly hostile, doesn’t it?

And calling me a Right Wing Nut Job isn’t very friendly, either.

But please forgive my ignorance. In what way did I project the way I would react onto others? I will definitely keep it in mind so as not to project so much in the future.

Thanks!

Easy_to_refute_wingnuts (Pro-liberal)
I don’t have to be friendly to RWNJs.

< Hostile, though he later claims it’s a measured response to a “troll”. >

Me (Conservative)
Oh, great response! Technically you don’t have to be friendly with anyone… but that’s hardly useful.

I’m giving you a chance to educate someone you label a RWNJ. Is your only education going to be hatred?

Easy_to_refute_wingnuts (Pro-liberal)
It’s the only response RWNJs deserve.

< WHOA!  Rude, bullying, dehumanizing and belligerent all rolled into a single statement! >


Me (Conservative)
While I hold no love of Bush, keep in mind the only thing on the memo was terrorists were planning on attacking the US using airliners.

What should have been done?

bbcaaat 
Tighten security involving pilot training and airline access for starters.

Me (Conservative)
Ah, the wonder of hind-sight. We didn’t know they would hijack 747’s. We didn’t know they were getting pilot training in the US. We didn’t know anything beyond an attack was coming and planes would be used. They could have flown Cessna planes filled with explosives into downtown San Francisco for all we knew.

Maybe security could have been increased – better door locks on cockpits, but it wouldn’t have helped. At that time there was trust that hijackers would negotiate.

It was a failure of imagination. We couldn’t imaging that anyone would do such a thing so we didn’t try to stop it. Now we know better.

Andy_Kreiss (Pro-liberal)
If you’re going to ask somebody “What should have been done?” you don’t really get to revert to criticizing them for hindsight. You specifically asked for hindsight.

Me (Conservative)
Nit picking a bit, aren’t we? But fine… not using past tense, let’s put it this way:

Go back to July, 2001 and you’re the president. You have no idea what’s about to happen when you get a memo that says terrorists are training in the US and are going to attack using planes. What do you do?

Easy_to_refute_wingnuts (Pro-liberal)
Using the present tense to refer to past times is still exactly like using the past tense to refer to those events

< Diversion technique?  We were discussing pre-9/11 actions or in-actions. >

Me (Conservative)
My intention here is to discuss what GW Bush should have done given what he knew. This is in response to JimiJams’ question, “Was Bush asleep at the wheel?”

Andy is saying my counter argument doesn’t hold because I allowed for hindsight. I begrudgingly agreed and rephrased the question in a way that hopefully removes hindsight.

Without the benefit of hindsight, can you answer the question?

Go back to July, 2001 and you’re the president. You have no idea what’s about to happen when you get a memo that says terrorists are training in the US and are going to attack using planes. What do you do?

Andy_Kreiss (Pro-liberal)
Nit picking? No, you’re asking people to use their hindsight, then bagging on them for using hindsight. Pretty much right to the meat of the subject.

< Apparently the question wasn’t important. >

Me (Conservative)
Andy,

You chose to view my question as a hindsight question. That was not my intention and I re-phrased the question. Can you please answer it?

Go back to July, 2001 and you’re the president. You have no idea what’s about to happen when you get a memo that says terrorists are training in the US and are going to attack using planes. What do you do?

< No response. >


Inspector Hellman (Pro-conservative)
Obama is in the dark about his own administration’s activities, blames the resulting mess on subordinates, skips intellegence meetings and hopes that with the help of a sycophantic press and the passage of time, all will be forgotten. He’s no Harry Truman that’s for sure.

MMFA, tirelessly defending the indefensible..

Mozo1 (Pro-liberal)
Thanks for sharing your dreams and fantasies with us.

Me (Conservative)
Nightmares – and unfortunately real.

Tell me, how many people have died in Afghanistan since Obama took office? The sycophantic press posted the number of deaths almost daily when Bush was in office.

How many times has Obama said something then reversed his statement?
How many times has Obama feigned ignorance rather than lead?

“If you like your doctor, you can keep you doctor.”

“We have been very clear to the Assad regime … that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized…”

He’s not the first to do these things, but he seems to be the most prolific.

Mozo1 (Pro-liberal)
Thank you for BS talking point corner. Why don’t you tell me how many people died in Afghanistan since 2009, because that would be the first date on record the right wing cared about any servicemen’s passing.

As for reversing himself or “feigning ignorance” the former, happens all the time. The latter you’re making up as the right has a fantasy Obama they only see and hear.

Because, in reality, it’s reality on the ground that changes things. Like his “keep your doctor” comment — can you tell me what happened shortly after he said that regarding HHS that invalidated that statement? Forget about people not being able to keep their favorite doctors due to their insurance suddenly having a set of standards (or getting better) but what change did HHS make?

Also might want to google how that whole Assad thing turned out.

Me (Conservative)
WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP WITH THE PETTY INSULTS!!!

Is being crass an advantage in making a point?

Please let me be clear:
1. I served my country during the first Iraq “war.” I care about our military. I understand and applaud their sacrifice.
2. I don’t like Clinton, GW Bush or Obama.

The liberal news stopped reporting death counts when Obama took office. That rather strongly suggests they only reported it to make Republicans look bad, not because they cared. Because if they cared they would still be reporting the numbers, even if only once a month.

Now maybe can you make the argument that conservative news didn’t care at all… but that would suggest they didn’t report on the war at all. At least they didn’t politicize it.

Mozo1 (Pro-liberal)
WILL YOU PEOPLE STOP WITH THE PETTY INSULTS!!!
You People: NO. Sorry, winger arguments aren’t deserving of much more. When you say things like “the conservative news didn’t politicize the war” people laugh and the laughter is deserved.

< Whoa!  “NO?”  This person is insulting someone they don’t know from Adam over what?  And he does it on purpose. >

Obama slapped by a small dictator and his feigned ignorance are also laughable insults.

Thanks for your service though and you can always look up that pesky Obamacare info. I mean, you were able to count the times he said something (24 times) so discovering what changed shouldn’t be difficult.

Me (Conservative)
You do not debate. You gibber.

From now on I will simply see you as a teenager with nothing more than “Mom, he won’t stop touching me!” as an argument.

Mozo1 (Pro-liberal)
Talk about your petty insults. Nice standards, Bob.

< Here’s an example of an antagonist being dismissive when provoking someone into a negative response. >

Me (Conservative)
Look you started the insults. I asked you to stop and you flat out said “NO.”

You then called me a “winger” – an insulting slang. Hey, as a liberal aren’t you supposed to be against such language?

You say people are laughing at me and I deserve it. Another major insult. Can you back up your claim? Is there a reason my claim was so humorous?

YOU SPEAK WITH HOSTILITY AND DISRESPECT AND WHEN I RESPOND IN ANGER YOU DARE SAY I HAVE “NICE STANDARDS”?

That’s what I thought – you (and many other liberals) poke people until they poke back so you can call them names and dismiss their argument.

You give compliments then qualify them.

I don’t know you from Adam so I won’t pretend to know your problems, but I know you need lessons in manners and respect.

You are a bully and should be treated as such.

I’m done with you.

I sincerely hope you find a lot more happiness in life and let it out now and then.

Mozo1 (Pro-liberal)
Yup, about the response I expected. Keep believing nonsense.

< And the dismissal itself.  Maybe that last sentence should be highlighted.  I suspect it’s the root of his problems.>

“Keep believing nonsense.”


A few random comments:

sglick (Pro-liberal)
Hey Iron Mike — why don’t you run for President on the platform of ‘I’ll read my PDB every day, twice on Sunday after the Prayer Circle, and always have a follow-up meeting with my entire National Security Team that will be on the record so Right Wing Conservative watchdog groups will know what I’ve been briefed on daily”. I’m sure you’ll win easily with such a simplistic stump speech and policy goals. Otherwise, just STFU.

< STFU = Shut the f*** up – such language! >

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